WHAT THEY SEEK TO DESTROY

[TadFromPoland]

[panther]

[TadFromPoland]

[panther]

I took it that way Tad, that his remarks were in regard to his profession and not relevant to his vision of Europe.
That's why I quoted another of his quips about his profession.

In regard to Europe I think the myth needs to be dispelled for those who choose to use Winston Churchil as evidence, that he was in fact 'against' us being IN it and I find some difficulty with certain people's own vision when what he said is quite easy to understand.

"We are not comprised of Europe" and "We are with Europe but not of it", is quite difficult to interpret as a yes vote to Britain 'being comprised and of it' I feel.

There's another issue here though to contend with in so far as when one clearly speaks the truth and supports it with evidence, and brings forth the opponents own dependancy on such statements, that it is fundamentally wrong in my view to then cry the messenger to be a 'fool' or a 'liar', or a 'loony', or other such derogatory phraseology as if to signify the message is not true when in fact the reverse is clearly the case.

These hard facts easily come to light when confronted with someone who is unable to argue a point but simply wants to tirade and abuse another poster I feel.

Hope you are well.

[TadFromPoland]

[gayaussie]

[panther]

Meanwhile on the issue of Democracy, Dialogue and Debate as the forum title suggests, as opposed to Deviation and Discussion about Winston Churchil as others apparently think.

THE TRUTH AND WHAT THEY SEEK TO DESTROY !

http://www.britsattheirbest.com/freedom/f_your_own_choice.htm

Parliament has no Constitutional power to amend or repeal the fundamental common law basis of Magna Carta, albeit it has amended or repealed many clauses in statute laws. Magna Carta remains in force to this day and is a principal part of the British Constitution. Sir Winston Churchill said about it, “In subsequent ages when the state swollen with its own authority has attempted to ride roughshod over the rights and liberties of the people it is to this doctrine that appeal has again and again been made and never as yet without success”.

Magna Carta is the foundation of our liberty. It takes the power of enforcement away from the state and secures it to the people. It does this by mandating the right to trial by jury.

Our Common Law is ultimately superior to the statute law created by Parliament. A jury always has the right which is to give a not guilty verdict even if it runs counter to the interpretation or logic of statute law. Thus the people have the power to decide that a law is unjust and overturn it. The jury also ensures that the punishment fits the crime. The power of the state is thus limited so that statute law cannot become tyrannical. This is one of the Constitutional mechanisms that have defended our liberty for nearly 100's of years. The true importance of jury trial is that it limits the power of the state by giving the people the power of enforcement. By this means the British people have successfully inhibited tyranny and despotism.

To clarify,
I have quoted Winston Churchill's actual words and not the opinion of any author jumping on his massive bandwagon. I also realise Winston Churchill is dead and we can't ask him for his current thoughts and I'd sooner not second guess him. However when someone grabs on to his words they may remember he was indeed an enigmatic character and full of quotes, many of which contradict each other since he was also good at propaganda in his day.

[eunited]

I take my hat off to both TadFromPoland and Gayaussie, their erudite and highly comprehensive posts encourage us all to see the truth, and, therefore, give us an honest view into the issue of a United Europe within the Treaty of Lisbon.

Thank you both for your time to put this matter of Churchill's true thoughts forward.

Knights of the Round Table.

[panther]

Quote Winston Churchill

"We are not comprised of Europe"

and

"We are with Europe but not of it"

I think it's plain enough what he said and was eminently easier to understand than any commentary on his words thereafter which require no further interpretation other than he did not see Britain as comprised of or part of a European Union but rather he was outlining the political structure of France and Germany and other continental countries.

[eunited]

Your comprehension Panther is truly laughable. What do 'you' think Churchill meant? Do you have a thought of your own?

I think you and others here belong to an anti EU organisation who employ you to be at this forum many hours a day. Otherwise you are an unemployed individual who doesn't really know whether it's night or day.

[panther]

[gayaussie]

[adamtom]

The website named: Churchill and the Unification of Europe, gives the true and uncontaminated account of Churchill's view on Europe.

Churchill was the instigator of a United or Federal Europe. He saw it as the way forward for GB.

And, this man Panther copies verbatum from websites he searches to back his claims.

If we in the UK are going to herald King John from the 12th century to put us straight today, it shows how much we need Europe to help us run our count

While "old Europe" is most often portrayed as more bark than bite in its differences with the current U.S. administration, NPR commentator and former Washington Post European bureau chief Reid finds the E.U. as a whole "determined to change a world that has been dominated by Americans." The opening chapters quickly summarize everyday Europeans’ love-hate relationship with the States, the legacies of the 20th-century wars, and the creation of the Euro. The center chapters present GE as a case study in transatlantic trade gone wrong ("Welch’s Waterloo") as well as other snafus that show Europe attempting to dominate market share of everything from cell phones to pharmaceuticals. A chapter detailing what’s left of Europe’s welfare states is followed by a relatively bleak assessment of Europe’s armies, and the spin that the E.U. is betting on economic "soft power" for eventual global dominance. The concluding chapters warn that the U.S. ignores Europe’s new 25-nation strong union at its economic and political peril, but also draw attention to Europe as a huge, tariff-free market and potential sharer of global burdens. There’s little surprising here, but Reid’s primer on recent U.S. European relations genially summarizes an evolving, if often reluctant, partnership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_Europe

[panther]

[eunited]

I bet if KingJohn was reading this thread on this Forum he would die laughing. As you so succinctly put it Panther, he, like Churchill, is dead. So you harping back to the Magna Carta is ludicrous. Which was really why I raised the Churchill views.

The Magna Carter was written for the Barons trying to establish fixed property rights in order that the King would be unable to swan in and grab their lands. It had little to do with the ordinary man. It did later evolve into citizens rights over time, but was not written to address them then.

Therefore, you see, the Magna Carter was used as a precedent as time and change decided it should..